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	<title>Comments on: De Bellis Grammaticæ</title>
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	<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/</link>
	<description>a linguist without a language</description>
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		<title>By: More visualizations &#8212; The Ideophone</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6585</link>
		<dc:creator>More visualizations &#8212; The Ideophone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6585</guid>
		<description>[...] of the Queensland grammar scandal (sampled from three verbose posts at Language Log and from matjjin-nehen, including comments). It won&#8217;t help the debate, but it does give you the brouhaha at a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the Queensland grammar scandal (sampled from three verbose posts at Language Log and from matjjin-nehen, including comments). It won&#8217;t help the debate, but it does give you the brouhaha at a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Poser</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6411</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Poser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6411</guid>
		<description>Very nice post, and yet another example of why English teachers should not be allowed near linguistic curriculum, including English grammar. There may be competent guidelines emanating from English teachers and educationists, but I can&#039;t say that I&#039;ve encountered any in recent decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice post, and yet another example of why English teachers should not be allowed near linguistic curriculum, including English grammar. There may be competent guidelines emanating from English teachers and educationists, but I can&#8217;t say that I&#8217;ve encountered any in recent decades.</p>
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		<title>By: jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6388</link>
		<dc:creator>jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6388</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the feedback, it took a fair chunk of my day to write, and a while to review. I&#039;m hoping it&#039;ll buy me some time from all the people who tell me how slack I&#039;ve been of late...

A couple of things that I want to add:
I&#039;m not saying that language structure teaching is really necessary - it&#039;s clearly not required for linguistically competent communication as everyone knows - but if it&#039;s done at all, it certainly shouldn&#039;t be done with such an inappropriate framework.
Also, teaching English structure shouldn&#039;t really go into heavy detail, so I&#039;m not advocating teaching the independence of form and function as the basis of language or anything, but just using it to show how deficient this quasi-SFL framework is for its intended purpose. This is also what I think Huddleston was doing in his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.etaq.org.au/pdf/Problems%20with%20Coalface%20Grammar.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reply&lt;/a&gt; to Ferguson&#039;s guidelines, rather than advocating a highly formal, complex syntactic framework for English teachers.

Hey, did you like the title? I put a lot of thought into that! I thought it appropriate since Latin is, I guess, the patron language of prescriptive grammar. Maybe I was way off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the feedback, it took a fair chunk of my day to write, and a while to review. I&#8217;m hoping it&#8217;ll buy me some time from all the people who tell me how slack I&#8217;ve been of late&#8230;</p>
<p>A couple of things that I want to add:<br />
I&#8217;m not saying that language structure teaching is really necessary &#8211; it&#8217;s clearly not required for linguistically competent communication as everyone knows &#8211; but if it&#8217;s done at all, it certainly shouldn&#8217;t be done with such an inappropriate framework.<br />
Also, teaching English structure shouldn&#8217;t really go into heavy detail, so I&#8217;m not advocating teaching the independence of form and function as the basis of language or anything, but just using it to show how deficient this quasi-SFL framework is for its intended purpose. This is also what I think Huddleston was doing in his <a href="http://www.etaq.org.au/pdf/Problems%20with%20Coalface%20Grammar.pdf" rel="nofollow">reply</a> to Ferguson&#8217;s guidelines, rather than advocating a highly formal, complex syntactic framework for English teachers.</p>
<p>Hey, did you like the title? I put a lot of thought into that! I thought it appropriate since Latin is, I guess, the patron language of prescriptive grammar. Maybe I was way off.</p>
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		<title>By: Andyc</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6381</link>
		<dc:creator>Andyc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6381</guid>
		<description>Nice post, thanks, jangari which explains a bit more about how Ferguson went and dug this hole and jumped into it.

It strikes me that SFL appears to be a tool for semantic (&quot;functional&quot;) analysis, &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; syntactic/morphogrammatical (&quot;structural&quot;) analysis at all. Descriptions obtained using these two approaches &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; be partially correlated some of the time, but are not necessarily so: these are quite different, complementary aspects of a text. 

Your example demonstrates the difference nicely, with the choice of &quot;eating&quot; as opposed to &quot;capable&quot; as the core of the Complement Phrase. 

It is still inexcusable that someone, regarded as enough of an expert in the area to write the definite Teachers&#039; Guide, should have confused these two frameworks and their terminologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, thanks, jangari which explains a bit more about how Ferguson went and dug this hole and jumped into it.</p>
<p>It strikes me that SFL appears to be a tool for semantic (&#8220;functional&#8221;) analysis, <i>not</i> syntactic/morphogrammatical (&#8220;structural&#8221;) analysis at all. Descriptions obtained using these two approaches <i>may</i> be partially correlated some of the time, but are not necessarily so: these are quite different, complementary aspects of a text. </p>
<p>Your example demonstrates the difference nicely, with the choice of &#8220;eating&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;capable&#8221; as the core of the Complement Phrase. </p>
<p>It is still inexcusable that someone, regarded as enough of an expert in the area to write the definite Teachers&#8217; Guide, should have confused these two frameworks and their terminologies.</p>
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		<title>By: wamut</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6380</link>
		<dc:creator>wamut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6380</guid>
		<description>I was the product of a formal education entirely devoid of grammar teaching.  I didn&#039;t know a pronoun was until I was 18 and trying to learn Icelandic in Iceland.  My best friend who had the same schooling as me did 10 years of uni, a PhD and is now lecturing but I still think he has no idea what a verb is!  heheheheheh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was the product of a formal education entirely devoid of grammar teaching.  I didn&#8217;t know a pronoun was until I was 18 and trying to learn Icelandic in Iceland.  My best friend who had the same schooling as me did 10 years of uni, a PhD and is now lecturing but I still think he has no idea what a verb is!  heheheheheh.</p>
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		<title>By: bulanjdjan</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/06/18/de-bellis-grammaticae/comment-page-1/#comment-6379</link>
		<dc:creator>bulanjdjan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/?p=220#comment-6379</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting this Jangari. I first got wind of this debate while listening to &lt;i&gt;Australia Talks&lt;/i&gt; last night on Radio National. Their topic was triggered by the ETAQ debate, but was more specifically about whether grammar should be taught in schools.

The callers mainly wanted to complain about the mis-use of  prepositions and poor spelling etc (such a wasted opportunity for a real discussion about this issue!), and the guests wanted to have a slinging match over teaching SFL (or other descriptive approaches) compared to more traditional, prescriptive approaches.

As I&#039;ve &lt;a href=&quot;http://langguj.blogspot.com/2008/03/secrets-out.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;noted before&lt;/a&gt;, people really care about language. I couldn&#039;t get through on the phone. But even better than me venting my spleen, they spoke to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flinders.edu.au/speechpath/Staff/andy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Andy Butcher&lt;/a&gt;, who made several brilliant points. Firstly, not being taught grammar does not render one unable to use language. Secondly, learning about grammar does not necessarily render one able to write clearly or coherently. While it is a very meaningful activity to learn about the grammatical structure of one&#039;s own language, or the grammar of other languages, according to Andy, this does not translate to his students producing good written work. Unfortunately. Thirdly, writing is highly genre specific, and requires training. That is, training other than general awareness-raising about grammar. Typically this training should be prescriptive, not least because others will hold us to certain common genre-specific markers, and judge us if we fail to use them appropriately.

I consider myself a living testimony to Andy&#039;s points. Despite doing well during my undergraduate study in linguistics, it wasn&#039;t until I began Honours and went through the process of having my supervisor critique my writing and help me re-draft it, that I really understood what &#039;good writing&#039; was. *Knowing* about grammar is quite different to *writing well*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this Jangari. I first got wind of this debate while listening to <i>Australia Talks</i> last night on Radio National. Their topic was triggered by the ETAQ debate, but was more specifically about whether grammar should be taught in schools.</p>
<p>The callers mainly wanted to complain about the mis-use of  prepositions and poor spelling etc (such a wasted opportunity for a real discussion about this issue!), and the guests wanted to have a slinging match over teaching SFL (or other descriptive approaches) compared to more traditional, prescriptive approaches.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve <a href="http://langguj.blogspot.com/2008/03/secrets-out.html" rel="nofollow">noted before</a>, people really care about language. I couldn&#8217;t get through on the phone. But even better than me venting my spleen, they spoke to <a href="http://www.flinders.edu.au/speechpath/Staff/andy.htm" rel="nofollow">Andy Butcher</a>, who made several brilliant points. Firstly, not being taught grammar does not render one unable to use language. Secondly, learning about grammar does not necessarily render one able to write clearly or coherently. While it is a very meaningful activity to learn about the grammatical structure of one&#8217;s own language, or the grammar of other languages, according to Andy, this does not translate to his students producing good written work. Unfortunately. Thirdly, writing is highly genre specific, and requires training. That is, training other than general awareness-raising about grammar. Typically this training should be prescriptive, not least because others will hold us to certain common genre-specific markers, and judge us if we fail to use them appropriately.</p>
<p>I consider myself a living testimony to Andy&#8217;s points. Despite doing well during my undergraduate study in linguistics, it wasn&#8217;t until I began Honours and went through the process of having my supervisor critique my writing and help me re-draft it, that I really understood what &#8216;good writing&#8217; was. *Knowing* about grammar is quite different to *writing well*.</p>
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