Comments on: Marn Grook and the History Wars http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/ a linguist without a language Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:27:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: jangari http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-9166 jangari Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:50:38 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-9166 No, Peter, they probably didn't speak the same 'dialect', but there would have been significant similarities between the neighboring languages. There would also have been plenty of multilingualism, so many people in community X would have easily understood, if not spoken themselves, language of community Y. To say that the communities did not mix is a bit of a furphy; they would have, but even if they didn't ordinarily mix, there was certainly still linguistic, social and cultural commonalities. All of which, I concede, merely allow - rather than entail - the Mark Grook story to be the truth. No, Peter, they probably didn’t speak the same ‘dialect’, but there would have been significant similarities between the neighboring languages. There would also have been plenty of multilingualism, so many people in community X would have easily understood, if not spoken themselves, language of community Y.

To say that the communities did not mix is a bit of a furphy; they would have, but even if they didn’t ordinarily mix, there was certainly still linguistic, social and cultural commonalities. All of which, I concede, merely allow – rather than entail – the Mark Grook story to be the truth.

]]> By: Peter http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-9165 Peter Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:42:33 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-9165 I had a long running battle with the AFL over the origins of Australian rules football. They told me repeatedly that proof was in a letter on display at the MCG. I have yet to see this letter.. However I am certain Marn Grook is a total fabrication as neighboring Aboriginal tribes did not mix or even talk the same dialect for that matter. I had a long running battle with the AFL over the origins of Australian rules football.
They told me repeatedly that proof was in a letter on display at the MCG.
I have yet to see this letter.. However I am certain Marn Grook is a total fabrication as neighboring Aboriginal tribes did not mix or even talk the same dialect for that matter.

]]> By: Jangari http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-8166 Jangari Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:12:39 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-8166 Yes, Fossman, I'd heard something like that, that Wills was very up to speed with the local culture. To think that he then invented Aussie Rules without being heavily influenced by Marn Grook, and then come up with something so similar, is absurd. Yes, Fossman, I’d heard something like that, that Wills was very up to speed with the local culture. To think that he then invented Aussie Rules without being heavily influenced by Marn Grook, and then come up with something so similar, is absurd.

]]> By: fossman http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-8165 fossman Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:08:36 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-8165 Wills was captain of Rugby at Rugby School. However, the game he invented had many differences to Rugby and some similarities to Marn Grook. There was no offside rule in the first rules of Aussie Rules. Wills encouraged running with the ball. Wills developed positional play whereby two opposing players were paired off, much as it was in Marn Grook. There is much denial of the potential influence of the indigenous game on Wills. Wills grew up with the Djab Wurrung, he spoke their language, sang their songs and performed their dances. To contend that he would not have played and been influenced by their games is absurd. Wills was captain of Rugby at Rugby School. However, the game he invented had many differences to Rugby and some similarities to Marn Grook. There was no offside rule in the first rules of Aussie Rules. Wills encouraged running with the ball. Wills developed positional play whereby two opposing players were paired off, much as it was in Marn Grook. There is much denial of the potential influence of the indigenous game on Wills. Wills grew up with the Djab Wurrung, he spoke their language, sang their songs and performed their dances. To contend that he would not have played and been influenced by their games is absurd.

]]> By: Adrian Morgan http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-6246 Adrian Morgan Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:27:52 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-6246 I've always thought there's a potential for a documentary on football presented as a mock Attenborough-style wildlife documentary. Such a program might, for example, describe players of all football codes as related species with different evolutionary adaptations. It would take talent to pull this off but done well it could be very amusing. I’ve always thought there’s a potential for a documentary on football presented as a mock Attenborough-style wildlife documentary. Such a program might, for example, describe players of all football codes as related species with different evolutionary adaptations. It would take talent to pull this off but done well it could be very amusing.

]]> By: David Nash http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/comment-page-1/#comment-5242 David Nash Sat, 24 May 2008 01:54:38 +0000 http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2008/05/23/marn-grook-and-the-history-wars/#comment-5242 I saw that broadcast too, and was skeptical about Poulter's comment. I consulted Blake's 'Woiwurrung, the Melbourne language' in <i>HAL</i> 4 (1991), where the vocab lists <i>mama-</i> 'hold, grab' (p.114) and the fields list has the extra information "(='save') Wg" (p.99) i.e. recorded by John Green in Brough Smyth, from the 'Yarra Tribe'. Blake summarises the incomplete information on verbal inflexion, amidst which there is an imperative inflexion <i>-k</i> (pp.75-6). Blake thinks the 3rd singular object pronominal is zero, and "that the primary stress occurred on the first syllable as in most other Australian languages" (p.61). So from Blake's account we can say that the Melbourne language word pronounced ['mamak] means 'hold it, grab it, save it'. It is implausible for this to have been borrowed into English as [ma:k], don't you think? I saw that broadcast too, and was skeptical about Poulter’s comment. I consulted Blake’s ‘Woiwurrung, the Melbourne language’ in HAL 4 (1991), where the vocab lists mama- ‘hold, grab’ (p.114) and the fields list has the extra information “(=’save’) Wg” (p.99) i.e. recorded by John Green in Brough Smyth, from the ‘Yarra Tribe’. Blake summarises the incomplete information on verbal inflexion, amidst which there is an imperative inflexion -k (pp.75-6). Blake thinks the 3rd singular object pronominal is zero, and “that the primary stress occurred on the first syllable as in most other Australian languages” (p.61). So from Blake’s account we can say that the Melbourne language word pronounced ['mamak] means ‘hold it, grab it, save it’. It is implausible for this to have been borrowed into English as [ma:k], don’t you think?

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