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	<title>Comments on: Yiligawu</title>
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	<description>a linguist without a language</description>
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		<title>By: Jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>Jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-394</guid>
		<description>David, I use the terms &lt;i&gt;fortis&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;lenis&lt;/i&gt; liberally. To me, the dichotomy is inclusive of contrasts of VOT as well as length or even other possible contrasts between plosives. To be honest, I didn&#039;t realise the terms referred specifically to those Swiss unaspirated voiceless stops, but it would surely be greedy of the Swiss to demand that they can refer &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I use the terms <i>fortis</i> and <i>lenis</i> liberally. To me, the dichotomy is inclusive of contrasts of VOT as well as length or even other possible contrasts between plosives. To be honest, I didn&#8217;t realise the terms referred specifically to those Swiss unaspirated voiceless stops, but it would surely be greedy of the Swiss to demand that they can refer <i>only</i> to them.</p>
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		<title>By: David Marjanović</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator>David Marjanović</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-383</guid>
		<description>If it&#039;s a length contrast, why do you call it fortis-lenis?

I mean, that (it turns out) is what these terms were invented for (the contrast between two sets of &lt;i&gt;phonetically&lt;/i&gt; voiceless unaspirated consonants in Switzerland), but the terms have been used so often in so many different ways that many apparently just roll their eyes when they encounter them (e. g. Ladefoged used &quot;fortis&quot; for the extra-weird Korean stiff-voiced consonants), and it would leave me *sniff* without a way to name the contrast between the two sets of phonetically voiceless unaspirated &lt;i&gt;short&lt;/i&gt; stops in Austrian Standard German and most Bavarian-Austrian dialects. It also occasionally occurs in some Englishes. (Apparently it&#039;s the loudness of the release = pulmonic air pressure.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s a length contrast, why do you call it fortis-lenis?</p>
<p>I mean, that (it turns out) is what these terms were invented for (the contrast between two sets of <i>phonetically</i> voiceless unaspirated consonants in Switzerland), but the terms have been used so often in so many different ways that many apparently just roll their eyes when they encounter them (e. g. Ladefoged used &#8220;fortis&#8221; for the extra-weird Korean stiff-voiced consonants), and it would leave me *sniff* without a way to name the contrast between the two sets of phonetically voiceless unaspirated <i>short</i> stops in Austrian Standard German and most Bavarian-Austrian dialects. It also occasionally occurs in some Englishes. (Apparently it&#8217;s the loudness of the release = pulmonic air pressure.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 05:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-384</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the suggestion Claire, but luckily it won&#039;t be necessary. I&#039;ve just found a room in the last hour. There&#039;s a bloke in town who has a set of dongas that he mainly uses privately, but he digs the community work - as opposed to the rampant mining activity - and has given me priority. It&#039;s still tentative though, he has been holding this room, among others, for some concreters who were supposed to be in town by now and are uncontactable. So if they show up, I might be out on the street again. I just trust in the fact that concreters are inherently unreliable¹.

Lucky though, because I&#039;m not up-front enough to be able to ring people I don&#039;t know and ask them if I can unfurl a swag on their floor.

Re: getting speakers to repeat something, I know exactly what you mean. This is a typical exchange:
Me: Can you say this one for me? &quot;ga-yu buluman, gahan gakkalak&quot; (that moon is big)
Speaker: Yowey. (yes, as in, &#039;yes, that moon &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; big&#039;.)

I&#039;m going to go for straight elicits, possibly primed with a target word. So, starting with &quot;what&#039;s that word for moon?&quot;, then &quot;Okay, so how do you say &#039;that moon is big&#039;?&quot;

¹If any concreters of friends of concreters read this, take it facetiously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the suggestion Claire, but luckily it won&#8217;t be necessary. I&#8217;ve just found a room in the last hour. There&#8217;s a bloke in town who has a set of dongas that he mainly uses privately, but he digs the community work &#8211; as opposed to the rampant mining activity &#8211; and has given me priority. It&#8217;s still tentative though, he has been holding this room, among others, for some concreters who were supposed to be in town by now and are uncontactable. So if they show up, I might be out on the street again. I just trust in the fact that concreters are inherently unreliable¹.</p>
<p>Lucky though, because I&#8217;m not up-front enough to be able to ring people I don&#8217;t know and ask them if I can unfurl a swag on their floor.</p>
<p>Re: getting speakers to repeat something, I know exactly what you mean. This is a typical exchange:<br />
Me: Can you say this one for me? &#8220;ga-yu buluman, gahan gakkalak&#8221; (that moon is big)<br />
Speaker: Yowey. (yes, as in, &#8216;yes, that moon <em>is</em> big&#8217;.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to go for straight elicits, possibly primed with a target word. So, starting with &#8220;what&#8217;s that word for moon?&#8221;, then &#8220;Okay, so how do you say &#8216;that moon is big&#8217;?&#8221;</p>
<p>¹If any concreters of friends of concreters read this, take it facetiously.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-393</guid>
		<description>I could never get people to repeat things in the same language...

For accommodation - I once rang up random people at One ARm Point I didn&#039;t know to find a place to stay for a few days. &quot;Hi, you don&#039;t know me but I&#039;m one of these researchers and I can&#039;t get hold of anyone I know so can I camp on your floor for a few days?&quot;. It worked...

Have a great trip!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could never get people to repeat things in the same language&#8230;</p>
<p>For accommodation &#8211; I once rang up random people at One ARm Point I didn&#8217;t know to find a place to stay for a few days. &#8220;Hi, you don&#8217;t know me but I&#8217;m one of these researchers and I can&#8217;t get hold of anyone I know so can I camp on your floor for a few days?&#8221;. It worked&#8230;</p>
<p>Have a great trip!</p>
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		<title>By: Jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-392</link>
		<dc:creator>Jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-392</guid>
		<description>I have lists of target words, but I&#039;ve been advised away from getting that said three times in a row, because it&#039;s simply not natural speech. So I&#039;m trying to fit them into simple sentences where, yes, I&#039;ll control for focused versus non-focused prosody positions but, guven a non-configurational language, they could potentially stick the target word wherever they like. If I do it enough times, I should get a good spread of tokens.

Alejna, you know I&#039;m an archivist in my other guise, soto hear that you record &lt;i&gt;just&lt;/i&gt; on your laptop inflicts pain. But, if you have a good sound card and so on, it might be fine.

Perhaps you should get a good small encoder, such as a Motu, that plugs into your laptop and syncs with an audio recording program. But set-ups like these aren&#039;t the best if you ever plan to leave the lab. But, &lt;i&gt;get a good mic&lt;/i&gt;!! If your speakers don&#039;t mind having an obtrusive microphone in their face and you&#039;re in the studio, recording individuals reading from a page or something, then you should be using a dynamic mic, they&#039;re not expensive.

&quot;Reasonably quiet&quot; places don&#039;t exist in this part of the world. There are inevitably kids playing, dogs fighting, sprinklers sprinkling, air-conditioners air-conditioning, fans fanning somewhere close. And of course, my speakers like to cough directly into the microphones. You learn as you go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have lists of target words, but I&#8217;ve been advised away from getting that said three times in a row, because it&#8217;s simply not natural speech. So I&#8217;m trying to fit them into simple sentences where, yes, I&#8217;ll control for focused versus non-focused prosody positions but, guven a non-configurational language, they could potentially stick the target word wherever they like. If I do it enough times, I should get a good spread of tokens.</p>
<p>Alejna, you know I&#8217;m an archivist in my other guise, soto hear that you record <i>just</i> on your laptop inflicts pain. But, if you have a good sound card and so on, it might be fine.</p>
<p>Perhaps you should get a good small encoder, such as a Motu, that plugs into your laptop and syncs with an audio recording program. But set-ups like these aren&#8217;t the best if you ever plan to leave the lab. But, <i>get a good mic</i>!! If your speakers don&#8217;t mind having an obtrusive microphone in their face and you&#8217;re in the studio, recording individuals reading from a page or something, then you should be using a dynamic mic, they&#8217;re not expensive.</p>
<p>&#8220;Reasonably quiet&#8221; places don&#8217;t exist in this part of the world. There are inevitably kids playing, dogs fighting, sprinklers sprinkling, air-conditioners air-conditioning, fans fanning somewhere close. And of course, my speakers like to cough directly into the microphones. You learn as you go.</p>
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		<title>By: alejna</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>alejna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 03:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-391</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the detailed reply. It sounds like you&#039;ll be looking at some interesting sound stuff. You make me want to do field research! I&#039;m curious how you&#039;ll be doing your elicitations, to get those &quot;various positions&quot; you mention. Do you have word lists you work with? Will you be getting your tokens in different prosodic/focus positions? (Don&#039;t feel compelled to answer right away--I know you&#039;re crazy busy right now! But I am curious.)

Thanks also for the details on your equipment. I&#039;ve been thinking about investing in a solid state recorder and other equipment for my own nefarious purposes. (It may shock you to learn that I do most of my own recording on my laptop with a fairly cheesy microphone. But I usually primarily need just a good pitch track and a decent spectrogram. Plus most of my own work is on American English. Which, as you may know, is not exactly endangered.)

It makes me happy to know you&#039;ll be making such high quality recordings. I hope you&#039;ll have a reasonably quiet place to make them, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the detailed reply. It sounds like you&#8217;ll be looking at some interesting sound stuff. You make me want to do field research! I&#8217;m curious how you&#8217;ll be doing your elicitations, to get those &#8220;various positions&#8221; you mention. Do you have word lists you work with? Will you be getting your tokens in different prosodic/focus positions? (Don&#8217;t feel compelled to answer right away&#8211;I know you&#8217;re crazy busy right now! But I am curious.)</p>
<p>Thanks also for the details on your equipment. I&#8217;ve been thinking about investing in a solid state recorder and other equipment for my own nefarious purposes. (It may shock you to learn that I do most of my own recording on my laptop with a fairly cheesy microphone. But I usually primarily need just a good pitch track and a decent spectrogram. Plus most of my own work is on American English. Which, as you may know, is not exactly endangered.)</p>
<p>It makes me happy to know you&#8217;ll be making such high quality recordings. I hope you&#8217;ll have a reasonably quiet place to make them, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-390</link>
		<dc:creator>Jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-390</guid>
		<description>And thanks to you all, MrsChili, Iain and Alejna, for the encouragement and kind words. I&#039;ll try my best to be as regular and interesting as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thanks to you all, MrsChili, Iain and Alejna, for the encouragement and kind words. I&#8217;ll try my best to be as regular and interesting as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Jangari</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>Jangari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-389</guid>
		<description>Alejna, you caught me on a break, so I&#039;ll fill you in.

I haven&#039;t thus far done any phonological/phonetic analysis, but my supervisor wants me to do some now, since this won&#039;t be an academic trip and I won&#039;t have to concentrate entirely on complex predication. I put the &#039;phonology&#039; tag in before I edited out a lengthy paragraph detailing precisely what I&#039;m looking at, so here goes.

Wagiman, like most Australian languages, doesn&#039;t have a voicing contrast, though phonetically speaking, some stops might occur as voiced and others as voiceless. It does, however, differentiate between fortis and lenis, but on the basis of length of closure rather than voice onset time (I&#039;m sure you know what I&#039;m talking about, so I don&#039;t need to dumb it down). So while there isn&#039;t a &#039;voice&#039; distinction in the European sense (where VOT = voice), there is still a fortis/lenis distinction.

Unfortunately, I can&#039;t think of any minimal pairs, but to give you an idea, we write the geminate (fortis) stops with double &#039;voiceless&#039; letters, like /kk/ in &#039;bakka&#039; (tobacco), and the simplicate (lenis) stops with a single &#039;voiced&#039; letter, like /g/ in &#039;-buga&#039; (plural suffix). I want to get enough tokens of each, in various positions, to get an idea of what length of closure is perceived as a geminate versus a simplicate. Also, we want to find out whether the only phonemic difference is the length of closure. There may in fact still be a difference in VOT as far as we know.

I also want to know what length of &#039;closure&#039; is typical of geminate (long) nasals, since there is a long/short nasal contrast too. And this time I do have a minimal pair:
&lt;i&gt;nga-nanda-yi&lt;/i&gt; [ŋánandai] &#039;I see him/her/it&#039;
versus
&lt;i&gt;ngan-nanda-yi&lt;/i&gt; [ŋánnandai] &#039;he/she/it sees me&#039;
Add to that the fact that clusters don&#039;t phonolgically become homorganic; any heterorganic combination is possible, or so we think.

I use a Marantz PMD660 flash ram recorder, using highest quality uncompressed PCM WAV; 16 bit resolution, 48 kHz sample rate. The accessories invludes up to four microphones: two Behringer matched, mini condensers, one lapel condenser, and one Rode dynamic. I&#039;ll probably use the dynamic for the phonetic work, the condensers are for elicitation and texts. The lapel is a spare. Add to that two mic-stands, multiple CF cards, mic cables (4 in total), Sennheiser headphones and a backup mp3-dictaphone. I probably won&#039;t be doing any of the actual &#039;analysis&#039; while I&#039;m there, but when I do, it&#039;ll be with Praat, most likely.

See how straightforward fieldwork is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alejna, you caught me on a break, so I&#8217;ll fill you in.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t thus far done any phonological/phonetic analysis, but my supervisor wants me to do some now, since this won&#8217;t be an academic trip and I won&#8217;t have to concentrate entirely on complex predication. I put the &#8216;phonology&#8217; tag in before I edited out a lengthy paragraph detailing precisely what I&#8217;m looking at, so here goes.</p>
<p>Wagiman, like most Australian languages, doesn&#8217;t have a voicing contrast, though phonetically speaking, some stops might occur as voiced and others as voiceless. It does, however, differentiate between fortis and lenis, but on the basis of length of closure rather than voice onset time (I&#8217;m sure you know what I&#8217;m talking about, so I don&#8217;t need to dumb it down). So while there isn&#8217;t a &#8216;voice&#8217; distinction in the European sense (where VOT = voice), there is still a fortis/lenis distinction.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I can&#8217;t think of any minimal pairs, but to give you an idea, we write the geminate (fortis) stops with double &#8216;voiceless&#8217; letters, like /kk/ in &#8216;bakka&#8217; (tobacco), and the simplicate (lenis) stops with a single &#8216;voiced&#8217; letter, like /g/ in &#8216;-buga&#8217; (plural suffix). I want to get enough tokens of each, in various positions, to get an idea of what length of closure is perceived as a geminate versus a simplicate. Also, we want to find out whether the only phonemic difference is the length of closure. There may in fact still be a difference in VOT as far as we know.</p>
<p>I also want to know what length of &#8216;closure&#8217; is typical of geminate (long) nasals, since there is a long/short nasal contrast too. And this time I do have a minimal pair:<br />
<i>nga-nanda-yi</i> [ŋánandai] &#8216;I see him/her/it&#8217;<br />
versus<br />
<i>ngan-nanda-yi</i> [ŋánnandai] &#8216;he/she/it sees me&#8217;<br />
Add to that the fact that clusters don&#8217;t phonolgically become homorganic; any heterorganic combination is possible, or so we think.</p>
<p>I use a Marantz PMD660 flash ram recorder, using highest quality uncompressed PCM WAV; 16 bit resolution, 48 kHz sample rate. The accessories invludes up to four microphones: two Behringer matched, mini condensers, one lapel condenser, and one Rode dynamic. I&#8217;ll probably use the dynamic for the phonetic work, the condensers are for elicitation and texts. The lapel is a spare. Add to that two mic-stands, multiple CF cards, mic cables (4 in total), Sennheiser headphones and a backup mp3-dictaphone. I probably won&#8217;t be doing any of the actual &#8216;analysis&#8217; while I&#8217;m there, but when I do, it&#8217;ll be with Praat, most likely.</p>
<p>See how straightforward fieldwork is?</p>
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		<title>By: alejna</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-388</link>
		<dc:creator>alejna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 02:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-388</guid>
		<description>I really look forward to hearing (reading) about your field work. I&#039;m excited for you.

Is it primarily phonology research you&#039;ll be doing? (I noticed your &quot;phonology&quot; tag.) I&#039;m curious what sort of recording equipment you use. And what might be the &quot;essential accessories&quot;?

I will also miss your posting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really look forward to hearing (reading) about your field work. I&#8217;m excited for you.</p>
<p>Is it primarily phonology research you&#8217;ll be doing? (I noticed your &#8220;phonology&#8221; tag.) I&#8217;m curious what sort of recording equipment you use. And what might be the &#8220;essential accessories&#8221;?</p>
<p>I will also miss your posting!</p>
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		<title>By: Too Busy &#171; matjjin-nehen</title>
		<link>http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/comment-page-1/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator>Too Busy &#171; matjjin-nehen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 06:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.matjjin-nehen.com/2007/06/22/yiligawu/#comment-387</guid>
		<description>[...] field trip on Monday morning, I don&#8217;t foresee much free time to collate my thoughts among all the other things that I have yet to do. However, I will link to others&#8217; thoughts on the matter that are mostly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] field trip on Monday morning, I don&#8217;t foresee much free time to collate my thoughts among all the other things that I have yet to do. However, I will link to others&#8217; thoughts on the matter that are mostly [...]</p>
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