Comments on: Arthur or Martha

By: Jangari

Jangari — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 22:05:56 +0000

Nice work Aidan. A little more googling reveals that it was written by an English-born, Australian trained cinematographer, who filmed WW2 for the (rather Orwellian sounding) Department of Information.

So it may well have its roots in or prior to the war.

By: Aidan Kehoe

Aidan Kehoe — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:25:15 +0000

Earliest cite here is from 1964, though there’s a tantalising mention of a WWII history, but its content is not to be seen.

By: Jangari

Jangari — Sun, 03 Jun 2007 01:31:54 +0000

In any case, I think we can say that this is the most extensive etymological examination of Arthur or Martha in the public domain.

By: David Nash

David Nash — Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:32:50 +0000

I agree with Peter Austin’s memory above, and a quick survey of the three other Australians in earshot (born 1940s-1960s) says the generation (or two) above us used the expression — and it was (and is) about mental confusion generally.

By: Jangari

Jangari — Tue, 29 May 2007 10:10:11 +0000

I read this one earlier today, but ignored it, thinking it was concocted. But if it originally referred to one's being confused as to gender and only later one's being confused generally, then this may have been genuine: You'll freeze your knackers off swimming in that lake. When you get out, you won't know if you're Arthur or Martha! It's not referenced or anything, which was why I was sceptical. I got it here.

By: alex

alex — Tue, 29 May 2007 09:38:38 +0000

I certainly heard it as a kid. About 20 years ago in SW Queensland, my first exposure to the expression certainly did have connotations of sexuality/gender – it was used in reference to a ram which tried to mount both ewes and whethers – but more recently I’ve heard it in ungendered contexts like that which you described, to express general confusion or indecision. I still associate it closely with the idea of sexual confusion however, but possibly just because of the particulars of that early exposure?

By: Wamut

Wamut — Tue, 29 May 2007 07:00:41 +0000

I’ve heard ‘arthur or martha’ before, didn’t realise it wasn’t widely known… to me it doesn’t have any connotations of sexuality/gender but it’s entirely synonymous with saying ‘so and so doesn’t know if they’re coming or going’

By: Jangari

Jangari — Tue, 29 May 2007 05:49:24 +0000

Nice audio clip there, Peter!
I especially like the other unmentionables that Kennett calls Howard. Priceless!

By: Michael

Michael — Tue, 29 May 2007 05:40:46 +0000

Fascinating. My first thought was that the saying refers to ambivalent gender identity. In an R-less dialect it’s such a lovely and simple m/zero alternation. Those other names would work, but not nearly as well as these two.

I have never heard the phrase.

By: Peter Austin

Peter Austin — Tue, 29 May 2007 05:31:54 +0000

This expression has certainly been around for a while – I remember hearing it as a kid growing up in the 1960′s (nothing to do with bisexuals then). By the way, John Howard was described as “He won’t know if he’s Arthur of Martha” in an infamous recorded car phone conversation between Jeff Kennett and Andrew Peacock, way back in 1987 – see http://www.australianpolitics.com/states/vic/87-03-23_car-phone.shtml