Tue 29 May 2007
Arthur or Martha
Posted by jangari under Linguistics
[10] Comments
I’ve closed comments on this post due to massive amounts of spam. If you have any more etymological information to add, please email me and I’ll be grateful.
I was just reading an article on the Herald website about the government’s spending some $23 million on an advertising campaign about climate change and it included a saying that I’ve never heard in my life.
Labor treasury spokesman Wayne Swan said Mr Howard didn’t know whether he was Arthur or Martha on climate change.
Arthur or Martha? I mean, its meaning is clear given the context; Swan is pointing out that the government has always lacked a policy concerning climate change and therefore doesn’t know where he stands. Yet still, the phrase struck me as odd.
A quick search told me I was on the right track as to its interpretation, but I am still no closer to its source. One commenter on an ABC forum four years ago attributes it to Tony Abbott in passing, but I suspect it was simply a misuse of the word ‘coin’:
I wonder what Mr Abbot was referring to when he coined the term Arthur or Martha or was it Mr Costello or doesn’t it matter?
Another forum claims that the phrase refers to sexual ambiguity/ambivalence. The quote below is second-hand, the commenter later claims that another site (apart from the one where they saw this) says the term is Australian, which he rejects.
We don’t know who first used it but we can only assume it was someone about three hundred years ago. It’s sometimes used to describe bisexuals – they don’t care if it’s arthur or martha who they date – but frankly, unless you are dating someone in their seventies its not a very useful term. Its [sic] not like there aren’t other rhyming names that sound less drab – Steve or Eve, Jerry or Kerry, Helen or a hole cut into a melon. We think its got more to do with the implication that bisexuals aren’t that fussy.
Probably a closer interpretation would be that it describes (in jest) someone who themselves is sexually ambiguous, and does not know whether they are Arthur or Martha, but I’m sceptical about a sexual interpretation altogether.
It certainly wouldn’t be from any R-ful dialect, since the names wouldn’t rhyme. So that rules out most of the US, and probably the rest too, due to the cultural influence of R-ful dialects, and cuts out some parts of the UK.
I think it is Australian, based on the names (they sound reminiscent of late 19th century or early 20th century Australian names), in which case the ‘about three hundred years’ would be stretching it a bit. For the same reason I don’t think this is about sexual ambiguity as the person above claims. He’s on the right track though, the names Arthur and Martha are too… incongruous with a culture that talks about sexual ambiguity enough to have idiomatic phrases about it. I also severely doubt that Abbott would be using it if it had anything remotely to do with transsexuality.
So, does anyone have a better idea of where this phrase has its basis? I’d be very somewhat interested.

May 29th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
This expression has certainly been around for a while – I remember hearing it as a kid growing up in the 1960′s (nothing to do with bisexuals then). By the way, John Howard was described as “He won’t know if he’s Arthur of Martha” in an infamous recorded car phone conversation between Jeff Kennett and Andrew Peacock, way back in 1987 – see http://www.australianpolitics.com/states/vic/87-03-23_car-phone.shtml
May 29th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Fascinating. My first thought was that the saying refers to ambivalent gender identity. In an R-less dialect it’s such a lovely and simple m/zero alternation. Those other names would work, but not nearly as well as these two.
I have never heard the phrase.
May 29th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Nice audio clip there, Peter!
I especially like the other unmentionables that Kennett calls Howard. Priceless!
May 29th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
I’ve heard ‘arthur or martha’ before, didn’t realise it wasn’t widely known… to me it doesn’t have any connotations of sexuality/gender but it’s entirely synonymous with saying ‘so and so doesn’t know if they’re coming or going’
May 29th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
I certainly heard it as a kid. About 20 years ago in SW Queensland, my first exposure to the expression certainly did have connotations of sexuality/gender – it was used in reference to a ram which tried to mount both ewes and whethers – but more recently I’ve heard it in ungendered contexts like that which you described, to express general confusion or indecision. I still associate it closely with the idea of sexual confusion however, but possibly just because of the particulars of that early exposure?
May 29th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
I read this one earlier today, but ignored it, thinking it was concocted. But if it originally referred to one’s being confused as to gender and only later one’s being confused generally, then this may have been genuine:
You’ll freeze your knackers off swimming in that lake. When you get out, you won’t know if you’re Arthur or Martha!
It’s not referenced or anything, which was why I was sceptical. I got it here.
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
I agree with Peter Austin’s memory above, and a quick survey of the three other Australians in earshot (born 1940s-1960s) says the generation (or two) above us used the expression — and it was (and is) about mental confusion generally.
June 3rd, 2007 at 11:31 am
In any case, I think we can say that this is the most extensive etymological examination of Arthur or Martha in the public domain.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:25 am
Earliest cite here is from 1964, though there’s a tantalising mention of a WWII history, but its content is not to be seen.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Nice work Aidan. A little more googling reveals that it was written by an English-born, Australian trained cinematographer, who filmed WW2 for the (rather Orwellian sounding) Department of Information.
So it may well have its roots in or prior to the war.