Mon 16 Apr 2007
Tails wagging or wagging tails?
Posted by jangari under Linguistics
[21] Comments
Factors appear to be combining to obfuscate what should be some straightforward syntactic analysis.
Wagiman has inalienable body parts, in that they may occur as adjuncts, specifying where an action took place on someone’s body. For instance, to say “my arm hurts” you could say mangh-nga ga-yu lari nganing-gin, which is literally ‘my arm (in the third person) hurts’. But you may also say mangh-nga nga-yu, lari which is ‘I hurt, arm’. A better example would be bowh-ma nga-ya, marttal ‘I swell up, foot’, meaning ‘my foot swells up’. It is clearly not the speaker that is swelling up, merely their foot.
Now this is usually no problem, except when combined with the optional dropping of overt subjects, which in transitive predicates would have to take ergative case, and the fact that the intransitive pronoun paradigm is identical to the object-is-third-person column of the transitive pronoun table (basically, you can’t tell from the prefix whether it’s a transitive predicate with a 3rd singular object or just an intransitive predicate), then you run into some issues.
Verbs pair with coverbs in Wagiman to form complex predicates, whose overall transitivity may differ from the transitivity of either – and occasionally both – of the contributing elements. We therefore need other factors to give us clues as to the transitivity of the overall predicate, like case marking or bound pronouns.
Now, see this sentence:
Wurnang-wurnang-nga ga-yu lagiriny
wag.tail-rdp-asp 3sgA(3sgO?)-be.pres tail(abs?)
Either: The tail is wagging
or: (the dog) is wagging, tail
or: (the dog) is wagging (his) tail
I’ve put the option of the verb containing the 3rd singular object bound pronoun in brackets, the two are form-identical. Same goes for the absolute case on tail; it is impossible to say if it is there or not (and even harder to argue that it matters).
The differences between the three alternate glosses is as follows. In the first, the tail is the subject of an intransitive clause and takes the zero-marked absolutive case, ‘the tail is wagging’. In the second, the understood dog is the subject of an intransitive clause and the tail is an inalienable body part. That is, it isn’t the dog itself that is wagging, it is the tail. But syntactically it resembles the sentence above, “I swell up, foot”, it isn’t “I” that is swelling up to be particular, it is the foot.
Finally, in the third, the dog is the subject of a transitive clause, so it should take the ergative case marker but is dropped anyway, and the tail is the absolutive-marked object. This shouldn’t ordinarily happen like this though, since the verb ‘be’ is monovalent; it only allows one syntactic argument; a subject. But other monovalent verbs in Wagiman occasionally form complex predicates that are transitive overall; the valency of the verb is not always a good indicator.
To cut a long and technical story short, I have gone for the second option based entirely on a hunch, but it could potentially be either of the three.
A hunch. Ha! See how scientific theoretical syntax is?
21 Responses to “ Tails wagging or wagging tails? ”
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April 21st, 2007 at 6:55 pm[...] of this relies in understanding the kinship system, which is way too complicated to go into now again, but basically ‘mother-in-law’ shouldn’t be taken as the English translation but [...]

April 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Wow. That is really cool, but I’m going to have to read it over again (my head is currently filled to the brim with OT analyses of onset clusters and infant word segmentation).
As for hunches…hey! I thought that’s how this game is played!
(The paper I’m currently writing is based on my hunch)
April 16th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
forgive me…but:
my hunch
my hunch my hunch my hunch
my lovely lady guess
check it out
April 16th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Himbly, I think I that allusion flew right over my head!
Onset clusters?! Cool! Soon I’ll have to start thinking about fortis and lenis stop contrasts as opposed to VOT contrasts. It’s been oh so long since I’ve done phonology.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
You’ve not heard that awful song? My Humps? God..I envy you. It’s awful and catchy…the worst combination.
Ohhh…wow, that’ll be a bit of a mind twister. Hard core syntax to hard core phonology. Kind of the papers I’ve written the past couple of weeks..but more intense.
I’ll write more about my stuff when I get more comfortable with it. I’m pretty excited, though. I”m testing infant perception of phonotactic gaps of English.
April 17th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Himbly, you’re FUNNY!
I’m coming at this comment from a COMPLETELY different perspective (because you’re all quite a bit smarter than I when it comes to all this linguistic stuff – I’m just a lowly junior college English teacher and have NO credientials in linguistics); isn’t it interesting how our bodies are not US? We (in English, anyway) speak of our bodies as possessions that are separate from who we are; I HAVE an arm, but I am not my arm.
That we talk about essential bits of ourselves in such distant terms is fascinating to me, and I’ve often wondered if other cultures spoke of their physical being in more intimate ways. Like you mentioned above; “I hurt – arm” is a far more “connected” structure. “I hurt,” with the specifier modifier of “arm,” doesn’t separate the physical bit of the arm from the being that controls it where, in English, “my arm hurts” does.
It has always seemed strange to me that we separate ourselves from our bodies with our language. It’s sort of an existential question, really; if we are not our bodies (and I agree that we are not) then what ARE we? It is quite possible that our language is structured the way it is precisely BECAUSE we recognize that we are more than our molecules and muscles, but that we can’t quite get a grasp on how to express that knowledge in ways that adequately capture the question….
April 17th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Well, Mrs Chili, an excellent point you make; this seems like an opportune time to segue to that essay by Daniel C Dennett, ‘Where Am I’.
http://www.cs.umu.se/kurser/TDBC12/HT99/Dennett.html
April 17th, 2007 at 10:06 am
This is especially interesting, given the points you raise, Mrs Chili, because I’ve just begun reading The Language Instinct by Pinker, in which he flatly rejects any notion that language can, even in a completely restricted sense, affect thought. So that point, if we are not our bodies (and I agree that we are not) then what ARE we? flies in the face of this. Pinker would claim that Wagiman speakers and English speakers do not think about the concept of one’s body and body parts any differently from one another.
At the very least there is clear empirical evidence that most languages (if they’re different enough) differentiate body parts differently – the word corresponding to ‘hand’ may refer to everything below the elbow but above the knuckles in one language, but in English it is everything below the wrist – which constitutes a clear difference in the categorisation of the conceptual space (kinship, especially in Australian languages, is another excellent example). The more fundamental difference between the inalienability of body parts from the ego (my hand is not just part of me, it is me) is, I think, very interesting.
Of course, this is only one half of the equation. In order to refute Pinker one would have to test whether or not the difference of language used affects how one thinks about their body parts, and couching this in non-linguistic terms (to avoid circularity) is difficult.
April 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
did you go to that course at ALI about language and thought?? that rad russian woman presented it… it was great and she gave lots of examples that show that language does seem to affect how we think about things… she had an endless list of cool experiments… my fave one was the experiment where you had to organise photos of a person at different ages in sequence. English speakers did it left to right no matter which direction they were facing, but old people from somewhere in Cape York did it following the path of the sun, so depending on which way they were facing it would be left-to-right, right-to-left, up-down or however…
okay, not sure if this is exactly relevant but such an interesting experiment!!
April 17th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I did go to that, but only for a couple of the days as it was very similar to a class I had a few years back with Bill Foley on language and culture. It wasn’t exactly the same, but there was a lot of overlap; we looked at a few of the cognitive science experiments and examples that Boroditsky refered to.
I especially liked the example of baby products in the west. The labels show a newborn on the far left, followed by a toddler in the middle and a young child on the right, all facing right. The same products failed to sell in the Middle-East, because apparently they gave the impression that they’ll send their kids to sleep, or make them shrink back into babies (right-to-left writing systems).
Another favourite of mine is that while in English, when writing an essay, we might say ‘As above…’ or something like that to refer to a previously mentioned idea. Japanese speakers (at least when it was written top-to-bottom, then right-to-left) would say ‘As to the right…’.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
There are ways of testing these hunches. For example, if Wagiman is anything like Bardi, although valency in complex predicates is not necessarily identical to either the light verb or the inflecting verb, it’s not random. Find out what the full argument possibilities are. Are there word order preferences based on topicality? That might give you a clue, too. Make the arguments plural and see what happens. See if your consultants will describe a situation where there are two dogs with their tails tied together, and how would they say “the dogs are wagging their tail (sg)”. Introduce it as a joke rather than a serious sentence for translation.
Furthermore, you have commas before the body parts you discuss first but not before “tail” – do these constructions have the intonation of afterthought constructions or are they more like secondary predicates? (I’d expect the latter but you never know).
You’re right, hunches aren’t scientific – they’re the starting point for hypothesis forming, testing, refining, and analysis.
April 18th, 2007 at 8:07 am
Thanks Claire, but this sentence in particular is from the dictionary and was probably uttered around ten years ago. So, unless I can find it among the tapes (might be difficult), I will have no idea of the intonation involved, but there was no comma in the example.
I reckon that no matter how much elicitation I do on wagging tails, I may be left with 2 options for this particular sentence at best. That is, I might be able to rule out, say, the possibility of ‘be + wagging’ ever being a transitive complex predicate, but unless wurnang-nga behaves consistently as to valency and transitivity, this example might just remain syntactically ambiguous.
I find it quite interesting that a sentence that is semantically unambiguous (no analysis will ever conclude that it was not something like [DO wag [THING tail]], pardon my crude Jackendovian semantics) but can be syntactically ambiguous, with three possible interpretations.
Perhaps further evidence of the independence and equal-importance of syntax and semantics.
PS. My thesis will be out (on D-Space) soon.
April 19th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
hi janari,
i’m interested where these Wagiman speakers come from. i’ve married into and bred with the warlpiri who are from central west n.t.
if the wagiman aren’t far from there and janari is your skin name there it sounds awfuly like jungari the warlpiri skin names of both my fathers and sons.
anyhow cheers
April 20th, 2007 at 12:10 am
ok now i actually found and read that bit about the Wagiman speakers and where you stayed you are my skin son. in kathrine you would’ve met many people from lajamanu.
so let me play dad here and say it’s bought time you settled down with a nice nungala
.
my kids mum is a nakamarra from the warneyaka (a guess at spelling) clan of the warlpiri tribe. most of here relatives go by the family name johnson.
April 20th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Hi Notallright, and Welcome!
Yes, you seem to have found the answer; Wagiman country runs from the Stuart Highway at the junction of the Jabiru Highway, pretty much south west, over the Daly (quite a distance upriver from the Daly River languages proper) and on the other side. On the far south-west corner of this area, Wagiman borders with Murrinh-Patha, which may give you an idea of the size. The country contains a number of large cattle stations, including Jindare (in the north) and Claravale (in the centre; I haven’t even been to the south yet).
I don’t quite know how the central skin system translates to the northern ones (between the Daly and the Gulf, the systems are exactly the same except for the names), but I have a sneaky suspicion that Jangari corresponds to Japangardi in Warlpiri. Jungarrayi corresponds I think, to Jungurra (see above) in the Daly, and Jimija in my system.
That makes Nangala my niece, and makes you my poison cousin, I think (the cross-cousin of my wife). Which means, I settle down garrim Nampijinpa!
(We should have an entire forum on subsection, to sort these things out.)
April 20th, 2007 at 9:38 am
yes i looked up the skin system through the warlpiri page on wiki. it doesn’t go into to great detail about who is who but it does link to a mathematical structure that the skin ships are based on. it is currently a matter of interest (though the mathematicians have no knowledge of warlpiri skin ships) in the maths world. i currently study maths so as there wasn’t a decent entry on lajamanu i ended up reading about that.
but i digress. i don’t know too much about the country you speak of as i lived in darwin when up there and visited a few times to lajamanu. i arrived in nt with 4 young children and left with six so i would visit family in lajamanu but never had time for vagabonding around there which would’ve been awesome.
but you’re right just cause names are similar doesn’t mean they translate exactly as each language group has different systems. i was shocked to find out that there’s no skin names in yorta yorta. the warlpiri mob at lajamanu shouldn’t really be there. they’re desert people but were transported there bout 60 years ago by the baptist church. it’s technically guringi land. yes it only i little bit away from vincent lingiari’s amazing deed.
but i’d really appreciate an entry on skin ships, details of different ones and comparisons would be fascinating. and i spose you could never understand their culture till you understand the skin relationships.
cheers
April 20th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Agreed.
The system seems so needlessly complicated when you try to explain to people ‘well, my father and my son have the same name, anyone who is Jangari I call my brother’ and so on, but when you see the system mapped out with a mathematical diagram, it’s quite aesthetically simple, yet genius.
I saw the wikipedia page, they also have one for ‘Australian Aboriginal Kinship‘ which includes a few lists of different terms in various languages. I’m considering adding a few graphs for the translation from one system to another. Perhaps having the sundown system (as it’s known up there) in brackets alongside the Pintupi (and Warlpiri) terms. But I don’t really have the time for this. I’ll put it in the ‘to-do’ list.
As for Lajamanu, well, I haven’t been that far south before, but I saw Lajamanu Power thrash the living shit out the Katherine Canons in a game in Katherine last year. I think it was about 220 to 13. They’re an excellent team, and it’s great hearing Warlpiri spoken on the field.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
From what I know, you seem to be right there Jangari. Notallright, looks like you just mixed up Jangari with Jungarrayi.
As for me, if I go to the desert I should become Japaljarri, so you might be my brother, notallright!??… I think I’m sposed to marry Nakamarra…
April 20th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Ah, some more pieces fall into place. Wamut, since I know you’re my gagu/gawu/granny (MMB), and, having worked it out with a little genealogy written on a scrap of paper, it is starting to make some real sense.
Japaljarri is Jalyirri in my system, brother of Napaljarri/Nalyirri, who is mother of Napurrula/Nawula, who is my mother. Therefore, Notallright, your sons/father are Jangarrayi/Jungurra/Jimija, who is the brother of my mother-in-law. Your cross-cousin then (father’s sister’s daughter), Notallright, is Nambijinba/Nambijin, straight for me.
It is so mathematical. An internally coherent, enclosed, logical system that allows you arrive at the same conclusion/answer no matter which route you take. Every time I learn more insights into it I dig it even more.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Someone (not me) needs to collate all this info together and make a big skin map, with all translations on every node.
If someone made some kind of computer program that did it, it’d be quite awesome. And it’s just the kind of thing that would translate easily to a computer. You put yourself in, with your skin name, and it goes right ahead and generates all your relatives’ names.
April 20th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
i’ve seen the map of skin system written down before but on the old fasioned pencil and paper style.
the warlpiri have a distinct advatage of being on average about 1 ft taller then most neighbouring tribes. i can tell you a funny story about on of their footy teams, though not sure if it’s the power as there are at least 4 teams from there i think. but anyhow after half time they jogged out on the ground and you know the lap of centre square warm up. then all of a sudden the team got into an all in brawl, with themselves. as opposition you wouldn’t know what to think would you. are they a dispointed rabble or just the angriest bastards around and you’ll have to listen for footsteps all day?